Editor’s note: This is relatively unedited and copied from a random, impromptu Slack conversation. File any complaints to our complaint department: @jared_leeper on Twitter.

@_AJSPECK_:  I really don’t know what the best system would be for college football. I actually kind of liked the BCS bowl situation, but the playoffs are fun too, I just think it has the chance to water down the games by putting already tired players through even more grueling games.

@jaredsmith24: P5 conference champs all in plus 3 at large.

@moldy78: They simply need to give credit for who you actually beat vs # of losses. Like nobody thinks WMU deserves a spot, and it sucks but they don’t. Extend that to p5 teams who don’t play anyone.

@_AJSPECK_: I don’t think small conference teams even deserve a shot and I’m sorry but that’s just my 2 cents. WMU is a nice story, but they’d get decimated by any of the other playoff hopefuls.

@reflectivity: LMAO

@moldy78:  I agree if they don’t schedule aggressively in the non conference.

@_AJSPECK_: ^ yep

@reflectivity: Going undefeated is fucking HARD. every team has a target on you, has studied you, you have to execute perfectly every time you step on the field. Bama will tell you the same thing.

@moldy78: It sucks that you can go undefeated and not get it but it also sucks when you play 6 ranked teams vs maybe 1

@reflectivity: WMU has managed to do it when so many others haven’t. why does that disqualify them?

@_AJSPECK_: Why is Boise State not in the Pac 12?

@jaredsmith24: This is why I say 8 team playoff. P5 plus your one loss team and the undefeated non p5 team.

@moldy78: I’m all for Boise or WMU if their SOS is comparable and they go undefeated

@reflectivity: Because we’ve been a four year institution since the late 60’s and an actual university since the early 70’s and do not have either the research profile or the endowment to join any of the countries top conferences, apparently. It ain’t about football or we’d already be in

@moldy78: Like to I get it sucks but who you play just matters.

@reflectivity: Why does it matter?

@moldy78: Umm playing harder teams is harder. 12-0 isn’t easy but that doesn’t mean it’s harder than 11-1 in the SEC. Wouldn’t be fair to bounce a team for losing to like Alabama when the team replacing you’s best win is like the 30th ranked team in the country.

@_AJSPECK_: That’s why I think it’s neat that WMU is undefeated but their best win is 1 point over Northwestern (yeah I get that Iowa lost to them). That doesn’t get you into the playoffs.
But to their credit, they’ve been destroying teams, it’s just that they’re destroying terrible teams.

@reflectivity: So look at Troy. Their only loss is by 6 points to Clemson

@moldy78: Who’s their next best win?

@_AJSPECK_: They don’t have a good win though

@moldy78: Or I mean best

@_AJSPECK_: 

@reflectivity: Next best win is probably App State.

@_alexgookin: Strength of record is more important than strength of schedule.

@moldy78: Sure however you want to define it.

@_alexgookin: Yeah, strength of record is a bit more specific but same concept.

@moldy78: But just like basketball who you play and who you beat should matter throughout the bowl system.

@_AJSPECK_:  I do think you need to reward these schools for their seasons (especially in the case of BSU going like 2 or 3 years without a loss because that was insane).

@moldy78: Gotta schedule as tough as you can in the non conference, but I know that’s difficult to get people to play you.

@_AJSPECK_: 8 team playoff would be solid in that sense though.

@jaredsmith24: (steps up to podium)

@_AJSPECK_: Yeah true @moldy.

@jaredsmith24: 8 team playoff for eva.

@moldy78: I’d be down for 8.

@reflectivity: 8 team playoff is GOAT. i hope we get there.

@jaredsmith24: Me too.

@reflectivity: 16 would be more fun but I’ll take what i can get.

@_AJSPECK_: Would they remove all conf championship games in that system?

@jaredsmith24: I would vote 16, but I think that’s highly unlikely.

@_AJSPECK_: 16 would be way too taxing for these guys.

@HAVRHLL: My dream for college football would be an 8 team playoff, 7 10-team leagues and the 8th spot be for mid-majors.

@reflectivity: Would have to. we’d have to spend all of dec in tournament games.

@moldy78: I think 8 is plenty.

@_AJSPECK_: Yeah 8 is max imo.

 @moldy78: Even with 8 you might remove title games.

@jaredsmith24: 8 would almost always include all of the scenarios we argue about every year.

@moldy78: They said that about 4 too. People just move the goalposts lol.

@jaredsmith24: Usually a drop off at 6 or 7 teams that deserve to have a chance to win title.

@tedflintkansas: Can someone explain to me why we as fans love cinderella in basketball but hate them in football?

@reflectivity: I love them in football :smile emoji:

@_AJSPECK_: Because they have a chance in basketball.

@reflectivity: #RowTheBoat #BleedBlue. Damn it, they have a chance in football too. Utah. TCU. Boise. App State. Name one.

@_AJSPECK_: One or two guys can make a team in basketball, it takes a whole lot more to win in football.

@jaredsmith24: I disagree with that @moldy I think they purposely started it at 4 because they knew it would generate so much controversy.

@_alexgookin: Let’s be honest, there are VERY few years the #9 team is good enough to compete for a championship.

@tedflintkansas: No one gave Boise a chance vs OU years ago, or Utah over Alabama years ago or TCU over Wisconsin, that is why you play the games

@jaredsmith24: exactly right

@moldy78: The sports just lend themselves differently. If you only let 4 or 8 bball teams into the tourney nobody would like Cinderella.

@jared_leeper: College football is the only sport anywhere where you can’t be crowned a champion by winning all games on your schedule. There has to be a path SOMEHOW if you go unbeaten.

@moldy78: There is such a huge difference between the grind of a major conference season and a bowl with month long prep.

@jared_leeper: College football is the most unfair sport in the world.

@moldy78: Why?

@jared_leeper: Why not?

@tedflintkansas: If a mid major goes 12-0 you let them in. How often does it happen?

@moldy78: Because you’re limited by the number of games you can play

@_AJSPECK_: @ted into a 4 team playoff?

@tedflintkansas: Let’s find out how they stack up, yes.

@jaredsmith24: They waste a whole month almost in CFB.

@jared_leeper: So then what’s the point of any of those outside teams playing a season?
To go to some jerkoff meaningless bowl?

@moldy78: Idk maybe they should form their own division if it’s an issue.

@jared_leeper: That would make more sense to me.

@_AJSPECK_: If PSU wins the big ten they’re in, but so would OSU. You would put Western Michigan in over Ohio State?

@tedflintkansas: Yes

@jared_leeper: No you wouldn’t, but why is that Western Michigan’s fault? They did literally all they could.

@moldy78: It’s not. It’s not charity. Trying hard isn’t enough.

@_AJSPECK_: It’s not, but they still haven’t played better ball than OSU.

@jared_leeper: That’s what I mean the system is only put together for big teams, but you can’t try harder than 12-0. That’s the point.

@_AJSPECK_: I disagree. The playoff is for the 4 best teams, not the 3 best and a feel good story.

@jared_leeper: So why even have the small conferences? What’s the incentive for going 12-0?
The motor city bowl?

@moldy78: Ask them, they are a part of it for a reason. Their budgets are often paid for by big schools.

@jared_leeper: I agree the playoff should have the best teams, but I think winning every game on your schedule justifies some kind of shot. It’s literally the only sport on earth where winning EVERY game they give you doesn’t make you a champ.

@moldy78: What stops Bama from moving to the MAC then and just going every year?

@jared_leeper: And that to me sucks for small schools.

@_AJSPECK_: Definitely, I think there should be a mid major tie-in with a prominent January bowl. Give them the Rose Bowl mystique

@jared_leeper: $$$$$

@moldy78: You have to be rewarded for beating the best. Not for just not losing to the worst.

@jared_leeper: Yes you do, but why is there no path somehow for a small team? They literally start the season knowing they can’t be champions.

@moldy78: There is a path, schedule harder.

@jared_leeper: Like you said, teams won’t play them.

 @moldy78: Houston could have made it. They scheduled OU.

@_AJSPECK_: Because you can’t play directional schools all year then expect to hang with a top 5 P5 team.

@jared_leeper: Guys I get what you are saying.

@_AJSPECK_: It might happen once every few years, but to let them in year after year would ruin the playoffs.

@jared_leeper: But to me it’s bullshit you can’t have a chance if you never lose, even if you get crushed – you had the chance.

@_AJSPECK_: Idk man, we’ll have to agree to disagree here.

@jared_leeper: In D1 hoops al 351 teams can win it all, they have a SHOT.

 

@moldy78: There are like 40g ames you have to win in bball, not 13.

 

@reflectivity: Not really. Games are games. It’s not like this is the difference between two hand touch with a nerf ball on thanksgiving morning in the yard and the fucking super bowl

@moldy78: There is such a huge difference between the grind of a major conference season and a bowl with month long prep

@jared_leeper: I know there isn’t a perfect answer, but winning ALL your games should count for something.

@reflectivity: Being champions, meeting a goal, enjoying time with teammates and learning all the life lessons that sports brings? Nah, its all about that cash, right?

@jared_leeper: What’s the incentive for going 12-0?

@moldy78: Sorry but I vehemently disagree. The physical beating you take from 4 and 5 star athletes 9 weeks in a row is incredible

@jared_leeper: I just think it’s bullshit only 50 teams realistically can win it all in a sport with 119ish.

@reflectivity: i disagree with you too, @moldy, with love. there’s not that much difference between getting hit by a 3 star and 5 star. still hurts.

@jared_leeper: Even at the start of the season with everyone 0-0. More than half the field is eliminated because they don’t have money.vOr opportunity.

@moldy78: Are you saying Houston couldn’t? They would have made it undefeated. They scheduled for it.

@jared_leeper: They are one school, they had a shot, yes. Western Michigan literally has no chance of getting in.

@moldy78: Western Michigan scheduled nobody.

@_AJSPECK_: Do you think they’d have a chance Leeper?

@reflectivity: WMU is getting jumped by Boise at the end if Boise wins out. WMU will not get jumped by a MWC champ SDSU.

@jared_leeper: That’s not the point? The point is they SHOULD have a shot.

@_AJSPECK_: The point of the playoffs are to find the best 4 teams to find the true champ.

@reflectivity: But thats on name recognition. and sucks because WMU deserves their shot.

@jared_leeper: I know that’s the idea

@moldy78: You earn your shot with who you beat.

@_AJSPECK_: That’s the side I’m arguing from

@jared_leeper: But half the teams don’t have the opportunity. That’s what sucks.

@moldy78: How can I know you are a top 4 team if you’ve never beaten a top 25 one?

@_alexgookin: I get both sides of your argument and agree with parts. But let me say this: last year, Iowa had an undefeated season with like the 56th toughest schedule in the nation. They were ANNIHILATED with the argument they had a weak schedule and everybody laughed at them. Now, Western Michigan is undefeated with the 105th toughest schedule. They get the benefit of the doubt because they are in a weak conference and people “want to see what they can do?” That’s where I look and think “okay, the SEC doesn’t crown 2-loss champions because they suck, it’s because they are amazing.” So I think it’s worth rewarding undefeated teams that play nobody, but you can’t elevate them over the ones that have proven themselves.

@moldy78: It’s unfair to those who have beaten top 10, top 25 teams to give away a spot just because a team was never challenged.

@_AJSPECK_: And if you are in the game of top 3-P5 teams and see your possible opponent put their backups in during the 3rd quarter you are fuming mad. You went to war and the other school got a bye.

@jared_leeper: Your argument of “schedule tougher” isn’t good enough for those schools. They can try but it’s not always up to them.

@moldy78: Who cares? Why does it have to be up to them?

@jared_leeper: The schools with no chance care.

@jaredsmith24: I think Leeper is saying, those schools don’t have the funds to schedule tougher. They are just good enough that the big boys don’t want to fuck with them in the non con.

@moldy78: Sometimes you do your best and it’s not enough. That’s life. Someone did better than you, maybe they had more opportunities to prove themselves but they met the challenge. Your resume is blank and theirs has tons of incredible achievement.

@jaredsmith24: 8 team playoff solves this. LOL

@moldy78: Would you hire a firefighter because his resume says “I’ve never started a house on fire before”

@reflectivity: Correct. We’ve managed it and still can’t get home and homes outside of the Pac to stick often. Started scheduling stuff in 2011 and are just now starting to see that payoff – Wazzu, Oklahoma State, Florida State, Michigan State. It took a damn DECADE.

@jared_leeper: Your argument of “schedule tougher” isn’t good enough for those schools

@jared_leeper: I understand and mostly agree with all your points but I’m not backing down that it’s bullshit half the D1 teams have no shot whatsoever at a title chance.

@_alexgookin: Yeah, an 8-team playoff honestly makes things so much easier.

@HAVRHLL: I think Houston would go 9-3 in the Big Ten or Big 12. That team is athletic and well coached. Problem is they are playing nobody teams and can’t get up for it week after week after week.

@moldy78: Play road games and get paid for it. If you want to win a championship with a 100th ranked schedule move down a division.

@reflectivity:  Right. Why pay a million bucks to go lose on national television and have your season ruined and piss off your fans. There’s no incentive.

@jaredsmith24: They are just good enough that the big boys don’t want to fuck with them in the non con.

@jared_leeper: You keep saying play road games and schedule tougher like it’s something they can control

@moldy78: Houston controlled it.

@jared_leeper: Not everyone is Houston.

@moldy78: Boise is now getting it.

@reflectivity: Guessing houston started working on that schedule in 2007.

@HAVRHLL: Yeah scheduling is at least 2 years out.

@jared_leeper: Boise still wouldn’t have got in this year at 12-0.

@moldy78: It’s not charity, it’s meritocracy

@reflectivity: This year?

@jared_leeper: I doubt it

@HAVRHLL: More like 10 years out. Hence why Baylor always had bad schedules… they will finally have a tough schedule in 2019.

@reflectivity: Yeah we would’ve WSU gonna win the P12 N. The MWC Mountain Division is on par with the SEC East FFS.

@jared_leeper: I agree with that.

@HAVRHLL: Look at WVU… they scheduled Mizzou when Mizzou was good. Now Mizzou sucks and WVU is bashed for not scheduling tough enough. WVU also scheduled BYU when BYU was considered good. Can’t predict their bad season. Thats essentially 11 P5 teams.

@jared_leeper: I just don’t think they would leave out a P5 school for Boise, and I think that blows for Boise.

@reflectivity: 12 and 0 Boise, which is a known quantity, probably would’ve gotten in. Now I don’t think 12-0 Houston, or anybody else for that matter, will actually get the playoff and not just a NY6 paycheck.

@jared_leeper: 8 teams does make it way more simple.

@moldy78: If a G5 team wants to schedule hard enough badly enough they need to be willing to go on there road without return home games, be creative. Neutral site games, ect. They need to even the playing field.

@reflectivity: Eventually you have to play for your fans, the ones bankrolling this thing. Boise is struggling with that rn.

@jared_leeper: But like Travis said they can schedule 3 years out and a tough opponent now may suck in 3 years.

@moldy78: That sucks, but pick your poison then.

@_AJSPECK_: ^ exactly

@HAVRHLL: I want to punch something when people bash West Virginia’s schedule. Missouri and BYU is a good schedule 9/10 years.

@reflectivity: We pay ticket prices on par with ND to watch MWC blowouts and have for years. If the home and homes i mentioned before don’t pan out, they’re going to have a revolt.

@moldy78: Would you rather go 11-1 in G5 or 8-4 in P5?

@HAVRHLL:  11-1 in G5 gets a NY6 bowl.

@jared_leeper: But the point stands they don’t have a fair shot and I’m done because I can’t make it more clear. Obama out.

@HAVRHLL: 8-4 in P5 gets the Insight Bowl.

@reflectivity:  Gets *Boise* in a NY6 bowl. Nobody else has done it yet. #TheNextBoiseStateIsStillBoiseState

@_AJSPECK_: UCONN. Got destroyed.

@reflectivity: They played a fiesta bowl in 2011. Not a NY6 game in the playoff.

@_AJSPECK_: And I also consider BSU waaaaaay ahead of any other mid major. The Fiesta is a NY6 game now.

@reflectivity: Yeah but it wasnt then.

@HAVRHLL: BCS = NY6

@reflectivity: That’s like us claiming the first two as NY6 wins. just not a thing.

@moldy78: It’s equivalent though

@HAVRHLL: Can we just refer to BCS Bowl wins/NY6 wins as legit bowls? Because Boise has won a legit bowl.

@reflectivity: It’s like BYU and their not really national championship.

@tom_danielson: So no we’re back to using one game bowl results to justify arguments? When we dismiss them for everyone else?

@reflectivity: Apparently so.

@moldy78: I don’t think that’s ever wise. If anything G5 schools out perform expectations in bowl games.

@tom_danielson: Making a playoff vs just a NY6 or BCS game does different things to a teams mindset if we’re talking chance for a national championship. WMU losing some random NY6 game didn’t prove to me they didn’t belong in the playoff. I think the original discussion of schedule and stuff is legit, but judging a team on a one game sample after pulling the carrot from them is a bit much for me.

@reflectivity: i mean we all know WMU/Bama would be a shit show, because EVERYONE vs. Bama would be a shit show. But WMU v. Ohio State or Louisville would be fuckin fun.
it would come down to execution and momentum vs. depth and be fascinating

@moldy78: This is a good point. And when you only play like 1 game vs a top 25 its unfair to expect people to judge you as a top 4 team in the country.

@tom_danielson: But judging a team on a one game sample after pulling the carrot from them is a bit much for me.

@tom_danielson: Agreed that’s why I think the earlier discussion was appropriate, but it shifted to something else.

@moldy78: WMU in one game I’m sure can keep it interesting with the best, but through a 9 game SEC/B12/P12/B10 schedule they wouldn’t go undefeated.

@reflectivity: This year? Probably not. 3 years of P5 money and recruiting?

@_AJSPECK_: Still no.

@reflectivity: I’d bet on that system to do great things. Look at Utah.

@tom_danielson: How can you just immediately discount it?

@_AJSPECK_: Because, these teams are good, and I mean good in their conferences, on an inconsistent basis. Why would they just become world beaters with more money?

@tom_danielson: TCU, Utah. There’s examples of teams jumping up and succeeding

@reflectivity: It’s not about the school.

@_AJSPECK_: If BSU moved up and got P5 money I believe they would dominate like they do now.

@tom_danielson: Right, but WMU is hopeless?

@moldy78: I mean if you dropped them into a p5 conference and gave them time it’s certainly possible.

@reflectivity: It’s about the coaching system and the process. Bama or WMU. Those things can be implemented with or without money

 

@_alexgookin: TCU is still a good example of a school that couldn’t go undefeated in the P5 after years of going undefeated despite still fielding great teams.

@reflectivity: Am i saying give Idaho P5 money and they’d be great? Fuck no, because they don’t know what to do with it. But for a place that has a good system and know what they want and how to get there and execute it well, that $ would be a boon.

@moldy78:  Yes Gookin. They’re still good but going undefeated in a P5 is near impossible.

@_AJSPECK_: 5 seasons of 8+ wins since 2000 for WMU. In a bad conference.

@reflectivity: still convinced its near impossible to go undefeated in any conference. It’s hard to win every fucking game. I don’t care who it is against.

@_AJSPECK_: Agreed, took a shit ton of luck for Iowa last year.

@moldy78: I just don’t get the opinion that it’s equally hard to go undefeated vs a top 10 schedule and a top 100 schedule. They aren’t equal achievements.

@reflectivity: Because it’s less about the opponent sometimes and more about beating your own mindset.

@_AJSPECK_: They aren’t even close.

@moldy78: No its about the opponent. Lol

@reflectivity: LOL

@moldy78: Like ISU isn’t beating Bama no matter how good their mindset is.

@reflectivity: But if Bama trips they could damn sure lose to y’all.

@moldy78: And when you are a double digits favorite every week you have a lot more room for error

@_alexgookin: TCU went 36-3 in the 3 years leading up to joining the Big 12 and then went 23-15 in the next 3 years and it took until the 3rd year to get to 10+ wins again. And they still lost a regular season game. P5 is just too tough to transition seamlessly.

@moldy78: Great example, and their recruiting got a lot better too.

@reflectivity: the seamless transition doesn’t exist cmon, but 3 years is the magic one. It’s just like any big change within a program.

@moldy78: So the TCU teams that played in the B12 were better than the MWC ones.

@_AJSPECK_: I just want to see BSU in the Pac or Big 12.

@moldy78: If who you play doesn’t matter what is the difference?

@reflectivity: its just like any big change within a program.

@_alexgookin: TCU is a fantastic example of G5 success transitioning to P5, but it also proves that the same teams that go undefeated in G5 won’t turn around and win 10 games the next year in P5.

@moldy78: More money better recruits and more losses? Why would that be?

@_alexgookin: If the argument is an undefeated G5 school is worth the same as a 1-2 loss P5 school, TCU has proven that’s not exactly true.

@tedflintkansas: Let them play, I would watch. Look at this year – besides Bama who for sure deserves to be there? And don’t say OSU.

@HAVRHLL: Gary Patterson had to retool and rethink everything about his program, despite being a MWC powerhouse, ISU toyed with them in 2012 in that first game.

@_alexgookin: But that’s the point—if he had to retool an entire program because of the competition, then that shows the difference between G5 and P5

@HAVRHLL: TCU has also taught us that anyone (even a small Christian college with no fans) can win if they are in a good recruiting city.

@reflectivity: New travel, changes in how things are done from day to day, the targeted recruits, all of those things have to be taken in to account. Major change requires looking at the process and strengthening it. I think Boise could be dropped right in because we’re used to over-performing, and doing it efficiently and consistently. If WMU had 20 years of that culture behind them, I’d believe they could drop right in to the B10 and win 10 games. They have like, three years. So that probably won’t happen.

@moldy78: If who you play doesn’t matter what is the difference?

@HAVRHLL: The worst thing that resulted from realignment is that the MWC in 2008ish was about to be P5 level, and then Utah and BYU left. Slide Colorado in there and boom.

@_alexgookin: All that being said, I totally agree with you @reflectivity from a Boise fan perspective. Given the opportunity, Boise likely sees as seamless a transition as you can have from G5 to P5. But not every team is Boise and not every year we can look at an undefeated G5 team and say “yeah, they deserve to hop a few 1-2 loss P5 teams.”

@moldy78: Sorry, I just don’t buy that traveling to different towns is a factor. And why not just keep doing things the same if you’re already able to compete with the top 4 teams in the country? Stay the same.

@reflectivity: maybe thats just a boise thing because travel has to be planned so well, and everything is so far. I’ll back down on that one.

@jared_leeper: At the very least acknowledge that it sucks for the small schools they don’t have a fair shot – deserving or not. They don’t have a chance and that sucks for them.

@moldy78: Agreed. And some years Boise will have a great non con schedule where they can prove themselves, some they won’t. You can bet if they beat an Oregon and went undefeated with a 40ish SOS and WMU was undefeated with a 100th SOS Boise would think they deserve in first.

@_alexgookin: All that being said, I totally agree with you @reflectivity from a Boise fan perspective. Given the opportunity, Boise likely sees as seamless a transition as you can have from G5 to P5. But not every team is Boise and not every year we can look at an undefeated G5 team and say “yeah, they deserve to hop a few 1-2 loss P5 teams.”

@moldy78: This was literally the first thing I said. It sucks but it’s the reality if football. No 68 team playoffs.

@jared_leeper: At the very least acknowledge that it sucks for the small schools they don’t have a fair shot

@reflectivity: All the MWC had to do was fuckin make the offer before the Pac and B12 did. 2005 or so. See what Boise was and make the offer. but NOOOOOO. Just that stupid WAC school from Idaho and then they lost their possible P5 conference because Utah and BYU did the Utah thing and got theirs, everyone else be damned. Stupid Craig Thompson. Hate the MWC for that.
They waited and waited and let us languish in the WAC with their noses in the air and lost their importance and their flagship schools. idiots.

@HAVRHLL: Boise, BYU, Colorado, CSU, NM, UNLV, Nevada, SDSU, Utah all decent enough to create a league, especially if it got TV money.

@reflectivity: Replace Nevada with Wyoming and you’ve got yourself a conference.

@HAVRHLL: Now the west (that isn’t P12) is essentially disenfranchised from college football for the foreseeable future.

@tedflintkansas: Everyone do a final argument for who they want in the CFP and go.

@reflectivity: Bama, Ohio State, Louisville, Western Michigan. For the underdog. For America.

@_AJSPECK_: Bama, Lou, OSU/Mich winner, Clemson. That would be the most entertaining and competitive in my opinion, with Washington being the 6th best right after these teams.

@moldy78: I don’t care whoever has the most impressive wins.

@HAVRHLL: Alabama, Alabama, Alabama and Alabama. I can’t wait to see Alabama take on Alabama.

@jared_leeper: Alabama, Ohio State, Louisville and just for fun Western Michigan if they are unbeaten.